Alfalfa pellets for Freckles. Yes or no?

[TiAmosJewell]

Okay for the last couple years Freckles has dropped weight over the winter and has already started this year and the real cold hasn't even hit. The hay at this barn is better then the hay I had him at before. Where I had him at before I supplemented him during the winter with roughage chucks and alfalfa cubes. During the winter the stable I'm at now does give beet pulp but not as much as I use to give him before. I don't know why last winter I didn't think this could be the change(I thought it was just him aging) as the hay and supplements are better then what he was getting before.

I know everything should be weighted and there was once upon at time a scale for the grain but it broke and was never replaced. So what he is getting now is a bale of hay(Timothy alfalfa mix)(roughly 25 pounds) Half a cup of oats, half a cup of soy bean and a small handful of sweet feed to get him to eat his supplements(serenity, minerals, flax seed and glucos...) twice a day. There will be a cup of soaked beet pulp once a day added soon(I use to give him 3-4 cups a day) and I wanted to bump him up to a full cup of soy bean twice a day.

Now I was thinking of putting him on alfalfa pellets, the pellets would be easier for the stable to feed then the cubes since his feed pail isn't that big. Finally my question, do you think it would benefit him? I'd have to buy the alfalfa since it's not supplied at the stable.

Oh also the hay is splint into three feedings and the barn owner will give them an extra flake during night check if they are nearly done.

PS I kment to say I want to catch him this year before I have to play catch up. He is blanketede in the winter and I want to get him a better blanket this year that goes up his neck if I can. I put his rain sheet on for the first time this year last night.

[Mary Ann]

A cup of this or that is nothing. It's like expecting your weight to change from the addition of a cracker or potato chip. You really do need to think in POUNDS.

The addition of alfalfa pellets would be a worthy idea. But bear in mind that he has to get at least three and a half pounds EXTRA beyond what would keep him at his NORMAL low weight to effect one pound of gain. If you gave him seven pounds extra each day (working up to it, of course) you'd get roughly a pound for maintenance and a pound of gain. That's only 30 pounds a month. Can you live with that?

Also, at that rate you'd go through a little more than a bag a week, or five bags a month.

A cup of soaked beet pulp is NOTHING. I wouldn't even bother.

[ride4fun]

Are these cups like an 8 oz measuring cup? or are you using the term for a generic mug/container that may be bigger. As MA said an 8 oz cup of feed is not much at all to a horse. If your barn's feed room stays above about 5c you can add the most calories and no worry of fizzy horse by adding in oil, although they need to be getting enough feed to mix the oil in. Horses can be worked up to digesting 6 cups of oil a day over mulitlple feedings but its rare for one to need more than 2 cups of oil.

[TiAmosJewell]

Its meauring cups. I should see if I can pick up a scale at the dollar store or thirft store. Yeah I was thinking the same for the beet pulp but thats what thye stable give every horse. I'd think you'd have to have at least 3-4 cups to do anything but at least it does get water into them.

Should I just ask the stable to up the soy or get the alfalfa? Weight wiose how much can he handle? Using the tape he's roughly 1100 pounds.

[Trailpal]

Along about September, I start my hard-keeper old guy on extra rations so I won't have to play catchup. Until it gets really bitter, he gets this once a day, in addition to the hay I have available.
1-1.5 pounds of beet pulp shreds
half a cup of vegetable oil
1.5# of 14% sweet feed
1 cup sunflower seeds (I feed for the oil, some think it doesn't help, but they are cheap and he likes them anyway).
He also gets 1T stock salt and some MSM in that daily plus his vitamins/pro-bi stuff.

This helps to put on weight and maintain it till the days/nights are consistently cold. Then I add a couple of pounds of Senior feed in the morning (I weighed it a long time ago, but now have my measure set up, so I forgot the weight). When we hit the really bad winter days, he gets that first beet pulp mixture twice a day, with the Senior feed added each time.

Depending on the hay I can get, I may a few pounds of alf pellets daily, I usually put it in a flat pan in his hay feeder, as it's just too much to get in the bucket - and he hates wet alfalfa.

My friend has an old (late 20's) stallion who pretty much has no teeth. He was reduced to gumming up the leafy parts from the alfalfa (they feed lots of alfalfa!), and was looking very poor, they were considering putting him down since it seemed he had no quality of life. I gave her my "recipe" and she adjusted it to suit him, and not only did he put on weight and shine, he actually bred a mare the following spring! (alas, both horses were pretty old, and she didn't stay pregnant, but he was obviously feeling pretty good.)

[TiAmosJewell]

Thanks for the info. I also forgot to mention last spring they cut the pastures up into paddocks so he didn't have so much acess to grass so I think that and a pretty dry summer has made this year worse.

I can try adding oil but whats best? I can't give him a lot of sweet feed as he'll get hot, he's better on oats but still......

[Yip]

I would start all over again with a completely new plan. As MA said, a lot of what you're feeding now is next to worthless because of the small amounts per day. She can help you balance it while also simplyfying the entire feeding routine, which will make your barn help very happy.

Also, for winter esp. you could be adding up to a cup of an oil to each feeding of his grain for extra calories and nice skin/coat. You can buy canola and corn oil from Wal-Mart or Aldi very cheaply.

That is 25# of good hay fed each day split over 3 feedings? If it really is 25# a day, that's a LOT of hay. I would take out a bathroom scale and weigh the hay to be sure you know what he is getting.

I just recently began weighing out my hay feedings and it is so easy, I wish I had thought of it before. I bought a Rapala digital fish scale 1/2 price from ebay, but you can get them at Wal-Mart, etc. I take what looks like the right amt. per feeding, tie it with a piece of baling twine, then hook the scale on and hold it off the ground. This is working great for me. I now weigh out the breakfast feeding at night so daddio doesn't have to guess what 4 and 5# feels like. As long as he doesn't add more, it'll be perfect.

[Yip]

I use canola oil, but some people use corn.

I would use flaxseed, wheat bran (?), or cold pressed olive oil if it were for only a short time because it is really expensive.

I used the bran oil on Phyllis one year and it was about $20 a gallon. BUT I got a great measured dispensing container with it which I use all the time now, so it was well worth the one time high price. I clean and refill it and it dispenses up to 8oz. of oil at once. I have found this gal. bottle invaluable for oils in the winter and ACV in the summer.

[Mary Ann]

Don't increase the soybean. That's generally 44% protein, far more than any horse needs. A quarter cup once or twice a day raises the amount of the amino acid lysine, which horses don't make themselves; but any more than that is not beneficial.

Dr Dan makes faces at corn oil. Yes it's fat, but the fat molecule is structured in a way that makes it undesireable especially for those who are insulin resistant. He's more for vegetable oil, which in our neck of the woods is generally soybean oil. Oil is a wonderful feed additive for horses. You can pack a lot of calories into a small space. In colder areas it'll get sludgy in winter, generally around 20 degrees and below. I'd recommend keeping it in the house or a heated area and using a pump on it that'll dispense an ounce at a time. That way you avoid spilling, giving too much or too little per serving, and know what you're feeding without guessing. And it's definitely less mess. R4F is right about feeding oil; it does a great job. BOSS is nice too, but you have to feed a lot more of it to effect the same change. It does make for a shiny coat though.

I do like feeding flaxseed, especially in the winter. But I wouldn't rely on it for a major part of the calories.

You can put oil on alfalfa pellets. If it was me, I'd get rid of the oats and sweet feed by slowly phasing it out, reduce the SBM and get him accustomed to accepting his supplements on the alfalfa pellets. The oil will help them stick. And I'd make sure to feed the alfalfa pellets in adequate amounts to make a real difference. If your horse resists eating this, you can get applesauce in individual cups to mix in, or you can make a yummeh syrup by melting lots of starlight mints in hot water until they're dissolved and squirting this on. Not too many horses will turn that down.

[Marci]

Why not just feed him Sr feed? And feed him about 3 to 4 LBS, not cups. And then see how he does. I know that it made a huge difference in Shadows weight.
You can use those 1 lb coffee cans to measure, I like those.
Not sure about the soy beans, 44% protein is too much. He needs more fat less protein I would think. The Sr is balanced, and easy to feed. Plus because the pellets are smaller you don't have to worry so much about choke-I soak my pellets, have since Shadow choked years ago. Plus they are not going to make him high like sweet feed. Oh and alfalfa can make them a bit high too.
Course odd thing is now that Shadow is at home and "I" am feeding her I have had to cut her way back on feed. She is just too flipping fat, talk about easy keeper.
I do have to wonder on the quality or quantity of the hay he is getting. It might just be "filler" hay.

[Trailpal]

The senior pellets are also made so they are softer (they figure a lot of Sr horses have no teeth) and they break down easily with some water.

[Yip]

My girls LOFF alfalfa pellets and wouldn't need anything added to entice them to eat!

My thought too is to just settle on a good feed and use nothing else (except hay) and possibly the oil. It's really easier and should be balanced better than you can do it yourself with different products. Senior is a good place to start, to me.

[Mary Ann]

I've got no problem with using Senior instead of alfalfa pellets. I know some people feel alfalfa can make a horse fizzy, but that's never been my experience.

[Marci]

I notice a difference in Shadow. She gets a little higher on the alfalfa, but thats OK.

[pamz]

TAJ,

The others are right. Half a cup of oats probably won't even register on a scale. I am dumbfounded that a boarding operation would even consider only feeding half a cup a day. It's like giving them an apple as a treat. No nutritional impact at all. A fifty pound bag of oats is way bigger than a 50 pound bag of pellets for example. Five pounds of oats will fill two three pound coffee cans so you can see that 1/2 cup will weigh almost nothing. And for a hardkeeper, even five pounds is not enough. Some race horses in heavy training can put away 15-20 pounds of oats a day, in addition to generous allotments of hay.

Ok, I'm going to really show my age with this one, but when I was a kid, we were taught "a pound of hay and a pound of grain (most people then fed a mix of corn and oats) for every 100 pounds of weight. SO a 1000 pound horse would get 10 pounds of hay, 10 pounds of grain. Nowdays, the percentages have changed because we know it's healthier for horses to have more forage and less concentrate. I use 15 pounds of hay and 5 pounds of grain for a starting point when figuring rations for a new horse. If it's a TB, I double the grain simply because most are much harder keepers than other breeds. Because I have done this for so many years, I can tell within a couple of weeks if I need to tweak the amounts.

Now, that said, your barn is more than generous with the hay rations and TA is a great mix for horses. Many horses will do fine on a hay only diet, especially when fed free-choice. Feeding 25 pounds a day is a free-choice amount. HOWEVER your horse for the last couple of years has shown that it's not enough FOR HIM. And therein lies the problem. I am actually pretty surprised that any boarding stable would even bother with such small amounts of grain or beet pulp. It's really like throwing away money for them since it's not helping the horses' condition at all. If they are going to be a "hay only" facility, then that is what they should do and just tell the boarders that if they want the horses to have grain, they have to provide it themselves. There are many, many places that do this. Personally, I prefer to properly feed the horses myself since ultimately I, as the land owner, am responsible for the condition of the horses kept on my property. Since your horse has lost weight the previous two winters, the BO are not feeding him enough, plain and simple. The only way an animal can lose weight is if he's using more calories than he is taking in. If he's using more calories than he's taking in, he's not being fed enough. But I digress, you didn't ask about their management skills, you want to know how to help your horse this winter, given the situation he is in.

IF your BO are willing to feed him what you provide, this is what I would do. I am a BIG believer in the KISS (keep it simple stupid) method of feeding horses. I would lose the additions except for maybe the serenity and a Vit E/selenium supplement. I am not sure about Vit E/se, but I'm guessing that Ontario is low in both, as is the entire NE US. You can check with your local cooperative extension (farm bureau? Not sure of the Canadian equivalent) to find out for sure. Then pick ONE good concentrate for the BO to give him twice a day. For a "seasonal" hardkeeper, I would pick a simple pleasure horse pelleted ration. Most pleasure horse rations are around 12% protein, and 3-6% fat. Pelleted rations are nice because the horse can't pick and choose what parts of it he wants to eat, so he gets the full benefit of what you are offering him. Start with the medium recommended amount (usually anywhere's from 3-6 pounds) according to package directions and go from there. Give him a few weeks to see how he responds. If he's gaining weight and you think he's ok where he is now, cut back a bit to find a maintenance level. If he's not gaining and you'd like him to, add more.