Freisian question (Mary Ann? Others?)

[Ben NLI]

How long do Freisians live on average? As a breed?

There's a somewhat wacky lady here with 2 Freisians (am I spelling that right?). One is 4 and crazy, but that's another story. Her older one is 24, and this woman is convinced she's a miracle horse. Said woman says that Freisians don't live very long, that 30 is unheard of, and 8 (yes EIGHT) is more like it.

I ask because this woman has had Cotswold sheep & they didn't live past five. My older two ewes' mother died last year at almost 14! I've talked to other Cotswold breeders (I got nervous!) and they say their sheep regularly live to their early teens. This woman pampers her animals- they are SO well taken care of, so I have no idea what could be going on. Her horses seem nice- no glaring flaws. They are FHANA registered, but I have no idea about their breeding. I've never met the younger mare, but he older one is quite sweet, if a bit snooty (I've heard Freisians are like that...). The older mare also thinkgs our Arabs are wierd

So... are Freisians really that short lived?

[charliemn]

Yes they are, Friesians don't have long life spans, sadly to say... a lot of them die from Torsion (sp?) colic, their digestive systems are very sensitive, they have poor stamina (weak lungs)... on average it's 7-15 yrs of age, and a lot of them die before age 10. there is an (unofficial)study being done right now by a small group of purebred friesian breeders on this trying to figure out what lines are more susceptible to the shorter life spans/genetic defects, once they collect their data they'll turn it over to the registries in hopes that an official study can begin.. to have a purebred make it past 15 your very lucky... I have heard so many people call late teen ones "old" at first I thought they were crazy but just last year alone over a 100 of them died (in the groups I'm part of) most of them were mares and stallions...

people need to be aware of all the multiple problems that come with the purebreds, yes they are breath-taking, great temperaments, personalities, gorgeous creatures but they need way more special care than your average horse. (one of the reasons I chose to cross breed with them versus owning a purebred)

[Dr Dan]

It's interesting to find out what some people think about the breed they own. Everyone thinks the breed they have is special otherwise why would they have that breed but in some cases it goes beyond.

Friesians (I before E except after C) are no different biologically than any other horse breed. They live about the same length of time as most draft type horse into their 20s if cared for properly. I am by no means a Friesian expert but even I know a couple of the more prominent stallions such as Tjimme who lived to be 24 still trying to breed mares.

You can go to this link and see a bunch of stallions and their date of birth and sometimes death
www.usfriesianreferral.com/photolinks.htm

[charliemn]

Dr Dan,

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but friesians are a bit different than other breeds and need to be cared for a bit differently as well. there is a suspected genetic defect that is associated with the purebred friesians, both the german and the dutch. many horses of this breed do not live past 15 and the other half will live into their 20's, in fact one stallion I know of lived until he was 28yrs old, the stallion I have bred to in the past is 19 this year... so I am not at all saying all of them are doomed, but there is something terrible happening to these horses that needs some serious attention.

and just an FYI- these horses that have been documented have all been well cared for and well over half of them (don't remember the percentage off hand) have died from torsion colic.

Also I do not think low of this breed (if I did I wouldn't have chosen them to cross with) they do have a great deal to offer, but they also have a great deal of problems and I want a more hardier animal than what the purebred alone can offer! so please do not accuse me of being a "lessor" person because I choose to cross breed to these horses.

[Mary Ann]

I know that there's been talk about that, but honestly it hasn't been my experience. I know several broodmares that are still producing well in their late teens, an approved stallion (Bouwe) that was covering mares (with arthritic hips) until he passed away in his twenties, and I have yet to personally know anyone who had a bad colic in a Friesian that was young that was allowed a high roughage diet and lots of daily turnout.

Honestly, knowing several breeders of Friesian horses, I have never seen anything any different from any other breed. I really believe management practices account for a good deal of it. Stall kept horses of any breed, performance horses worked hard of any breed, and heavily grained horses of any breed, are more susceptable to colic and early death. Many Friesian people keep their horses inside in order to keep them black. It's great for the outside of the horse, but it's not good for the inside of the horse.

I think it'll be interesting if they turn up any meaningful data, though.

[Dr Dan]

charliemn said:

Also I do not think low of this breed (if I did I wouldn't have chosen them to cross with) they do have a great deal to offer, but they also have a great deal of problems and I want a more hardier animal than what the purebred alone can offer! so please do not accuse me of being a "lessor" person because I choose to cross breed to these horses.

What you are talking about here is Hybrid Vigor - crossing two breeds, two totally different lines or even two different species producing a superior animal. And I would never accuse someone of being a lesser person, a little different maybe, but certainly not lesser ;D

I do not have a problem with crossing this breed if that is what you are looking for. I do not think they are as good as many people think they are in terms of performance, and I think they are overpriced (I think saddlebreds are overpriced), but there is no denying they are one of the most beautiful horses and extremely powerful looking especially under saddle. However they are just a horse and have the similar biological functions of horses. Currrently there is no proof that they live less than any other horse.

A study was done by the Germans a few years back in which they were studying the life expectancies of certain groups of horses - wild horses, captive non working horses, captive working horses. Here is what they found ....
Wild horses life expectancy averaged around 7 years
Captive non working horses averaged around 15 years
Captive working horses averaged around 24 years

So what this is telling us is that managment is the key and exercise is of great importance in captive horses. Like Mary Ann said some of the differences in Friesians may be in the way they are managed as opposed to other horses.

[charliemn]

MA... I'm not sure what's going on, but I do know that the friesian groups I'm on especially last year (maybe it was an exception) it seemed like every other post was, my stallion died, my mare died, my gelding died... most of them was from torsion colic.. a couple was from a poisoning of a plant out in CA, a couple were from injuries but it was a bad year that's for sure... and these horses were from all over the nation I do know of 7 FHANA stallions that passed in the last year or 2 at young ages... I'm not sure about many of them as to what their management fully was, but the one's I do know personally that died of torsion colic their management was good (good turn-outs/quality forage/feed on a work schedule etc) so to say it will be interesting to see what unfolds....

Dr Dan, it was your comment <It's interesting to find out what some people think about the breed they own> that made me feel as if you disliked people who cross breeds (general) I do have to agree thou that there are many friesian crosses out there that, well... are not good but that's not because of the specific crossing with friesians, it has to do with the poor quality of the two animals being crossed. I have also seen many good quality friesian crosses as well... for me I cross with them because I want bigger bones, stronger hooves,uphill build, better movement..

Thank you.

[ride4fun]

Stirring the pot here, but knowing several mares who are breeding into their teens, rathen than only several mares that aren't -- rather proves CharlieM's point. --its like a 3rd world country the average life expectancy is only 30(wag) --anyone born there may genetically be able to live to 70 or 80, but due to the high percentage who die before 5 the average life expectancy is low.
There is a bit of the $ value causing this of course, horses that cost that much are less likely to be given the freedom to 'really' be horses, turnout is probably limited to a small enough paddock that it can be fenced with no climb mesh or something considered really safe like that and so on, and when one gets a belly-ache its getting evaluated and getting surgery if that might save it. When arabs were high $, the ones in Calif 'were prone' to enteroliths -- well Susan G thinks that probably just more arabs were considered worth the cost of surgery and cheaper horses that died of colic had the stones too. --and they found that was diet related --feeding lots of alfalfa which in that area is high in Mag as well as Calcium.

[Newfygirl]

Dr Dan was not commenting on cross breeds. He was commenting on the fact that of course people think that their chosen breed is special, because otherwise they wouldn't own that breed. I did not get the impression at all that he was commenting negatively on cross breeds. While he says that he does not believe that they are as good as some people do, that is fine. Everyone has an opinion on what they like and dislike.

[Mary Ann]

Charlie, I agree with you, and I'm somewhat concerned, too. But if we take the posts on message boards as proof, we're going to need someone to look at QHs and Paints pretty soon, too. This board's been peppered recently with posts of grim colics and dead babies. I would suppose that this sort of observation would skew the reality of it.

And ride4fun, I suppose I should rephrase that. Of the Friesian broodmares I know that are of advanced age, I can't think of any that have problems reproducing. And those farms that I know well have large pastures with woods, hills, creeks, and trees, and the broodmare bands have run-in shelters until foaling. Then moms and babies go back out into large pastures with other mare/foal pairs when the time is right. On one of them, the mare/foal pairs go in at night to big foaling stalls, and back out again the next day.

I only personally know of one that passed from colic. He was five years old at the time, and they found no reason for it. There was no twist or torsion, no intersucception, no tumors, enteroliths, fecaliths, or gas. He just colicked and died on the way to the hospital. I understand that the training was very exacting, but no one will ever know the cause. If I remember right, the old stallion Bouwe died of heart failure, and those are the only two I know off the top of my head that have died.

I know a lot of folks feel that warmbloods colic a lot. I'd agree with you that the care for expensive horses often errs on the side of overprotection. Some feel that these big horses have big body cavities around relatively normal alimentary canals, and they feel that this contributes to torsions because the guts don't match the body. I suppose some Friesian people could feel this could apply to them, too.

[charliemn]

Newfygirl.... yes of course we all have our opinions on what breeds we like and which ones we don't whether it be a purebred or a crossbred and I am also entitled to my opinion and allowed to state it too, I happen to like the friesian cross and there are others that don't and that's fine with me.... he was commenting on the negatives that I said about the breed (as I took it) and that is what I was commenting back on...

The friesian life span (the original question) is short lived for a large amount of them 7-15yrs on average, having a small handful live into their late teens and 20's is a gift.

[charliemn]

MA, I don't know if you remember or not but last fall I posted a question here and on SM asking people of what ages and breeds of horses have died from colic? do you remember that? this was the reason I was asked to do a unofficial survey to try to get a somewhat idea of what ages and breeds of horses have died from colic, because so many friesian died last year, they were dropping like flies.. I did end up getting a good idea of the ages and most of them were in their late teens and 20's... with what is documented on the friesian side most of these horses were under 15yrs of age...

this is not a "bash" toward the breed, it's a sincere fear that many are feeling and experiencing these people that have lost their horses, are heart broken and are searching for answers.

This is a lot like any other genetic disease in other horses, the QH with HYPP etc. It's trying to find out the truth to save these horses that should be living well into their 20's instead of under 15yrs age...

[Mary Ann]

Charlie, this may come as good news to you.

Just for the heck of it, I googled 'lifespan of Friesian horses.' The first three references mentioned how long lived they are, mentioning a lifespan of 25 years.

I wonder if you've just known some people with some incredibly tragic luck.

[charliemn]

Ya, I'm not sure what to think of your findings... the horses that have passed within the last couple years are over 100 that's not just some people down on luck the list has both FHANA and FPZV horses on it... I think some lines are more susceptible to the shorter life than others and it may have to do with the inbreeding that occurred bringing these horses back.... they are majestic creatures and to me it's so sad always hearing of their deaths.

Thanks!

[Mary Ann]

Charlie, if you hear anything more concrete about it, could you let us know? I'd be kind of surprised if I see it in the FHANA publication. It's kind of a rah-rah magazine.