First Vaccuming...and Clicker Training

[linda]

I decided to try a vaccum on my mare today. I have a small hand-held that has a lot of power that I got for about $14 at COSTCO. Now, I cheated. My mare is clicker-trained and she will do almost anything for a horse goodie. I ran the vaccum over her first without turning it on. Then I turned it on away from her. Finally I approached her with the turned on vaccum. She stood still. I turned off the vaccum and rewarded her. A few more horse goodies and we had one side sort of clean. Then I did the other side. We only cleaned where the saddle and girth were going (yes, this was the horse that got a bath last week....). It went quite well. She was tense, but stood motionless. I am sure that the next time will be even better. My goal was to get the fine dirt that falls down next to her skin. We will see how it goes.

The odd thing about clicker-training is that the horses don't seem to have to re-learn everything when you move to the other side. It really has made me wonder about that very concept. Clicker training also seems to about double the IQ of the horse. Now that she knows there is something in it for her, she is very, very smart. You only have to ask once. If you reward, the response is instant the second time. And when you reverse--go the other way--you don't start over. She has it. And when she has a few months off for winter, all those skills are just as perfect in the spring. It kind of makes you think. I believe horses are much smarter than we ever give them credit for.
Linda

[Mary Ann]

Hi, Linda!

I have a confession; I bought the clicker training book, and a clicker. It made a lot of sense to me, and I taught my horse a few tricks. That was fun! But I found that, for me, having that danged clicker around every time I wanted to reward was a bit of a hassle. So I bridged instead to "Good," and sometimes "Good boy, good girl," etc. I found I could have my mouth going much more accurately than the clicker, especially under saddle.

I also like to vacuum my horses! I've used a Dustbuster, but more recently put a curry attachment on a Shop Vac. The noise is something to get them used to, but the biggest thing seems to always be the vacuum itself dragging around. I give it a yank, and it suddenly skitters. But so far, everyone's been easy to train to it. I haven't started the weanling yet, though; just another thing to get around to. Sure is easier getting that fine stuff though, isn't it?

I'd be glad to hear more stories of how you use clicker training to get various tasks done. It's a fascinating approach, and even though I don't use it much myself, I sure do admire it.

[linda]

Mary Ann, Where did you find the curry attachment for the vaccum? That sounds like something that would greatly improve this process. Right now I am just getting her used to the vaccum, but in the future it would be nice to be more effective.

I haven't used a clicker in years. I just "click" with my tongue behind my front teeth. I used this to have my mare hold her head down so the 5 foot tall vet could look at her infected eye. Instead of restraining the horse, it took about 5 horse goodies to get her to hold still on a slack rope. I used it to teach her to stand still to get fly sprayed. I used it to get her to stand almost motionless when she is tied and I have to go to the hourse to get something. She is exactly in the same spot when I return--awaiting her goodie. I use it to reinforce her perfect 4-beat Paso Fino gait on a loose rein. I use it to teach all her lateral movements--both with her halter bridle and bridleless. I use it to get her to approach strange object (like logging equipment in the woods.) This mare actually sees strange things as an OPPORTUNITY, rather than something to fear. I use clicker training to teach her to stand quietly--without any ropes--while I trim her feet. She holds her feet up for me so I can work.

The one area I have not been totally successful with is forward movement. Let's say I squeeze with my seat to get her to walk forward. When I get the movement, I click. Very good--it works just fine. The problem is that when this behavior gets fixed--which happens almost instantly--then she is looking to stop that forward movement to get the reinforcement (stop and eat.) Same for cantering. I had just a short area with good enough footing to canter. So she would canter (in the appropriate lead), we would come to the end of the good footing, I would click, she would stop, and she would be reinforced. She learned that the request was only to canter a few steps. So now I never click and reward the canter. I do use a reinforcement of telling her how good she is. She knows that is a positive reinforcer.

How well does the clicker-training work? It took me about one minute to teach her to turn on the forehand when she was newly under saddle. As soon as she figured it out, she would willingly go around and around. I switched to the second side. It took 5 seconds. She tried moving the same way as she had before, I stopped her and asked again. She immediately started moving around and around her front feet in the opposite direction. That is all it took--the behavior was locked in from that day forward. The strangest part is that the arena is this mare's favorite place to go. You have to pay attention to ride past the trail to the ring. She loves to go there and work on all of her movements--most likely because there is a lot of reward going on there.

This mare was clicker trained before being backed. It made everything go so easy. She saw the rider as being a treat dispenser--not something scary.

One more thing--horses can't eat while producing adrenelin. Just the act of feeding the horse calms the horse. So when you approach something scary--not only is the horse trying hard to please in order to get the reward, the very act of getting the reward(s) also calms the horse making the object truly less scary.

I buy what we call "packer pellets" for reinforcement. They are a complete horse ration. Packer pellets are what people pack into the back country to feed their horses. They cost me about $12 for a 50 pound sack. I go through maybe a couple of sacks a year. The dogs love these pellets as treats as well. Personally, I think they taste like ground-up hay, but whatever works ;D
Linda

[Mary Ann]

Linda, the way to get the forward movement from the horse is to bridge to an intermittent reward schedule with the treats added just every few times, then every tenth time, then left out. The reward becomes the noise itself.

We sometimes make the mistake of stopping our horses and at the same time saying "Good boy!" or whatever, so soon that "good boy" or your click is paired in the horse's mind with the stopping. You have to watch how you reward, and not allow the treat at that time. If horses are stopped and rewarded in the same place in the arena, they soon try and manipulate their "treat machine" by stopping in that spot to elicit a treat. So part of the art of training (aside from the behavioral science of training) is to read the horse and vary the place so they realize it's not the place, it's the activity itself. And it's the same with canter; if you push them through after they've done well and you've clicked, soon they associate the reward with continuing and acknowledging the click, not the treat. Part of the conditioning is getting the horse to acknowledge the click as a reward. The treat is just a reinforcer to be used in the beginning to establish the behavior, and rarely later, to continue to reinforce the behavior.

Intermittent reward schedules are why gamblers keep putting coins in the slots of slot machines. How often do those pay off? it sounds like perhaps you've persisted with the treats paired with the clicks too long; take away some of the treats, and see if you get a more intense response.

I got the curry attachment from Libertyville Saddle Shop. I know they have a catalog, as well as a website; but I usually just drive up a couple of times a year, and that's enough for me. They also have a brush attachment, but the curry's so good, I don't often use the brush one.

[linda]

Mary Ann, I see what you have done. You have established a variable reinforcement schedule using the "click". This, of course makes the behavior very hard to extinguish (I have a minor in behavioral psychology). I established my variable schedule differently--but still the same principle. I use the "good girl" to mean, yes, absolutely correct, but keep going. It is an intermediate reinforcer--like when your boss hands you a check. You know that you can trade that check in on down the line for something of value--like a horse! When we trained rats in class--say to pick up a marble.... Initially you clicked and rewarded each time (looking for closer and closer approximations to the behavior you actually wanted.) Once you had the behavior locked, then you started the variable schedule of reinforcement--they had to pick up the marble twice to get a click and reward--then three--then one--then five, etc. This really locks a behavior and makes it very difficult to extinguish. I learned that the click and the reward were directly linked--it was just the number of repetitions before the click and the reward that varied.

My canter problem has been resolved now that I have found a spot along a mountain road where the ground is good enough to canter. The problem I faced before that ground on the road was re-worked was really an issue with finding suitable footing. I only had a very short space to work in. I had to stop after just 10 canter strides or so because of footing limitations. This, of course, is something unique to my physical location. I love to canter--but sometimes it is over a year between my opportunities. The ground where I live is very hard and rocky--and the mountains are STEEP. You can't get into the mountains without being on a road--and those are hard and rocky. You just can't win much. I won't risk the legs of my horse for my own pleasure.

So, you have just one bridge signal--I have two. It is interesting how we have used the same process to develop two different systems--both work--that are slightly different. And, you are right--when I actually click, my mare stops for her reward. But she continues going when I give her the intermediate bridge signal of "good girl". I never reinforce the intermediate bridge signal, but she knows EXACTLY what it means. I guess I pretty much use the "good girl" like you use the "click".
Interesting

Thanks for the hint on the vaccum attachment. I bet I can find one now! I had never realized that I could buy an attachment that would fit my present vaccum. Thank you for the hint!
Linda

[Mary Ann]

LOL! Oh wow, another behavioral psych person in my life!

My hubby got his undergrad degree in physiological psychology, but the school (Indiana University) was heavy into behaviorism--- B.F. Skinner was the department chair there for 25 years. And my m-i-l had a psych degree from University of Wisconsin, doing research with Harlow on the mothering experiments. Then there's my b-i-l, who has advanced degrees in psychology, and does research on DNA, brain chemistry, and it's effect on behavior.

You should have seen us all at the Thanksgiving table! I make the distinction that my husband's family is among the fundimentally intelligent, and I'm just sort of superficially clever. I'm the only one there that doesn't have a masters, PhD or MD. They all sit around and discuss their latest recreational reading like "Ten Metaphysical Mistakes," and I sit at the end of the table and drool and say "Want to see pictures of my horsies??"

My heart goes out to you for the difficulty you have in finding a suitable place to school. That really stinks! I can't imagine what that would be like; I'm choosy about footing, but I guess I'm more blessed than I had previously realized. I hope they leave you your road spot, and don't goof it up!

[linda]

Wow!! This is exciting! Another person to look at this paradigm with!! It used to frustrate me that we only used avoidance reinforcement to train horses. It was the bridge signal that was missing when BF Skinner was so popular in the late 60s. I really like where this has gone--I can't believe how smart it has made our horses. (More like, how much better we are able to recognize the intelligence our horses had all along.)

I think Natural Horsemanship has a lot of bridge-type signals embedded in the program. For instance, after asking a horse to circle, you stand there relaxed. The horse experiments as to what it takes to keep that crazy person just standing there relaxed. Here it is more like a bridge AWAY from adversive stimuli--but it is definitely based in operant psychology--although I don't think too many people are thinking of it that way. It is sort of a set-up to get the horse to "train" the human--a very interesting turn of events. ;D

We have a lot to thank BF Skinner for. He did a whole lot more for us than teach rats to push a lever for a pellet.

I do have lots of positives in my mountain environment here in North Idaho. And I do have a horse trailer--I just don't tend to use it much. We live in a beautiful spot and I have beautiful views from the mountain just behind our house. I just have to travel more slowly to be safe and to protect the legs of my mare. This time of year the road starts to soften and I get to gait a lot--gliding along in a corto is also one of life's greatest pleasures. I can turn my horses loose on the lawn to graze with no danger to the horse. In fact, one of my horses LIVES on the lawn--his job is to mow. People don't know what to think when they come to our house and find a horse running loose. He runs down to meet cars--sticks his head it to say "Hi"--and otherwise just freaks non-horse people out.

Just keep showing that family pictures of your horsies! After all, the whole purpose of their research is to help us be better horsemen. Maybe they don't realize it, but WE know it is true!
Linda

[Mary Ann]

Wow, I feel like I've found a long lost sister or something!

Like us humans, I feel that horses are conditioned response animals, and we have so many options besides negative reinforcement with which to teach!

While I feel the basic principles of NH training are sound, I do have a problem with some of the applications of NH training. For one, it was supposed to be an approach that makes training more humane for the horse, and a way to introduce bewildered newbies to structured, progressive training. In that, it succeeds. But what I dislike about NH is it's often used as a 'cookbook' approach for the ignorant. I've run in to many newbies that are absolute slavish devotees, that are convinced that there's magic in the string halter and that danged stick, that imagine that they have some sort of mystical connection with their horse because they can walk into their horse's space and have the horse continue to back all the way around the arena, etc. I get frustrated because they fail to recognize when enough is enough, don't understand the timing of pressure and release in shaping behavior, and are absolutely clueless when their horse has an expression of utter irritation at their mindless, pointless requests. I also get really ticked off at the smug self-righteousness of many practitioners, that if Pat (or John or the Pony Boy) didn't say it, then it's wrong. It's like Horsey Cult stuff.

I'd better get off that soapbox; I could go on, and on, and on.

It's really an interesting coincidence to me that you live in northern Idaho. My husband just returned yesterday from a three day business trip there. He was mainly in Coeur d' Alene. He told me of the beautiful scenery, the pine forests, and the very gracious people. Everyone was so polite and kind. Made him think twice about where he'd like to retire!

[Chrisnstar]

wow, you two! This is like going back to college. I hope you don't mind me eavesdropping on your conversation!

chris

[Littljoe]

MaryAnn said:

But what I dislike about NH is it's often used as a 'cookbook' approach for the ignorant. I've run in to many newbies that are absolute slavish devotees, that are convinced that there's magic in the string halter and that danged stick, that imagine that they have some sort of mystical connection with their horse because they can walk into their horse's space and have the horse continue to back all the way around the arena, etc. I get frustrated because they fail to recognize when enough is enough, don't understand the timing of pressure and release in shaping behavior, and are absolutely clueless when their horse has an expression of utter irritation at their mindless, pointless requests. I also get really ticked off at the smug self-righteousness of many practitioners, that if Pat (or John or the Pony Boy) didn't say it, then it's wrong. It's like Horsey Cult stuff.

I've gotten up on that same soapbox many times, so don't worry! I'm delighted to see the growing popularity of NH methods, because at least it puts people in a kinder, more constructive frame of reference with regard to their horses. But you're absolutely right about how people cookbook the methods without really understanding the rhythm of pressure and release, or learning how to read the horse's moods. Like you, I'm bothered not only by the cult aspects (especially recently with *several* prominent trainers) but by the lack of common sense seen by many followers of NH; they don't seem to be able to take what they've learned and use it to develop a style of their own or a real rapport with horses. I was fortunate enough to get to know a trainer who insisted I think and develop my own style, within certain guidelines, and I'll always thank him for it.

It's also distressing to watch people who do the same exercises day in and day out for months and months, with a horse so bored that he's about ready to explode or has totally shut his brain off, on the assumption that a horse has to be *totally* safe at Task A before you can even talk about Task B. Hello?--a horse is never perfectly safe, but one who is challenged and engaged is infinitely safer than one so bored he becomes sour and angry, or one so shut-off and dull that he does what you ask even when it's not safe. I like a horse with enough gumption to tell me when what I'm asking is really stupid, and I like one ambitious enough to push me on to the next level of training.

The really sad thing is that horses are smart enough to know immediately if you're speaking from your own personality or if you're just parroting someone else. If you're constantly thinking, "What would Parelli (or whoever) do here," you're not really speaking to the horse, and he knows it. You can see it in the lack of true respect a lot of these horses have for their owner/trainers.

--LJ

[linda]

You are both right. What we have going now sure beats the heck out of what has gone before--but we are still left with the fact that you can't turn a newbie into a professional with a few lessons. Something like 80% of all the horses are owned by people with less than 5 years of experience. That is scary! At least when these people are thinking, "What would Pat do?", they aren't beating their horse for being stupid. They at least are realizing that they need to improve their own skills. That is at least a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, we all see people who are suppose to know better not knowing when to stop. And we are talking about timing and feel--at least we are talking about it. Timing and feel are no longer well-kept secrets.

I think horsemanship is moving forward rapidly. Hey--not perfect yet--but definitely a huge improvement over 20 years ago. I get frustrated too--I would like to see more professionals on TV doing it JUST LIKE ME and addressing my specific concerns. It is hard, sometimes, to realize that I am in the minority and that these professionals must direct their training to their audience in order to be successful. I do love to watch Parelli, though. I love the FUN that he puts into his performances. If there is anything that I know I need to add back into my life, it is the FUN with horses. My life has too many "gottas" and too few "I wannas".
Linda

[Littljoe]

Linda said:

I do love to watch Parelli, though. I love the FUN that he puts into his performances. If there is anything that I know I need to add back into my life, it is the FUN with horses. My life has too many "gottas" and too few "I wannas".
Linda

You're right, of course, about how general horsemanship has improved. I shouldn't be so critical. And I loved the bit I quoted above. That's what drew me to Parelli in the first place--his sense of fun. "Play with your horses, work on yourself" is a motto I can really get behind.

My daughter and I went to one of his demonstrations in Wichita a couple of years ago, and the good time was very infectious--he and his wife and the apprentices AND all their horses seemed to be having the time of their lives!

One thing absolutely floored us: Linda Parelli's two horses (both big dark bay Thoroughbreds, almost black) were left loose in the ring during an intermission, while country music blared out of the speakers and people milled around getting snacks and visiting. There were no people in the ring at all. We were sitting on the lowest step of the bleachers at ground level, only about 10 feet from the ring, so we could watch the horses. One of them just stood around, but the other was impatient and paced up and down one side of the arena at a good clip, but not a nervous pace--his ears were up, his step springy, his head and shoulders bobbing. We both realized at the same instant that he was walking in time to the music on the speaker! It seemed impossible, so we watched closely. When the song changed, the horse kind of looked around, lost his rhythm for a few seconds, and then picked up the beat of the new song and resumed his pace, or dance, or whatever he felt he was doing. I've never seen anything quite like it. This horse, all on his own, had taken his impatience and turned it into a game. What more can you say about a training method that produces horses who are independent problem-solvers on that level?

--LJ

[linda]

I was lucky enough to go to the 2003 Savvy Conference in Colorado. It was like a carnival--like a religious revival--a motivational extravaganza! Everyone--including all the horses and dogs--looked to be having a great time. The horses and young buffalo outside in the pastures were relaxed and at least a little bit curious about all the action. There was a tiny fan-powered plane with a parachute (think of Mary Poppins riding the bicycle across the moon) buzzing around. There were students EVERYWHERE sitting on their quiet horses bareback riding with halters directing traffic and answering questions. I got to see Jack Brainard teach lead changes--on the straightaway. I got to watch reining horse guru Craig Johnson (who as a young kid grew up with Jack Brainard's son) do both reining patterns and work some cows. Watching Craig sit a horse is remarkable. Chris was talking about having your body all working correctly--this guy HAS it. Watching him "do nothing" is unbelievable. He is perfectly in balance no matter what the horse was doing. But, under it all, it was the FUN that I saw everywhere. These people were enjoying themselves. The horses were either quiet and just hanging out--in spite of unbelievable distractions--or actively performing in the arena with great enthusiasm.

There were horse-drawn wagons and teams to work the arena. None of the draft horses wore blinders. There were people learning to drive teams up and down the road. They were sitting in golf carts with a 4 or 6 up of bicycles in front of them. Lines were run from each of the handlebars, just as you would have a real team. There were lots of "crashes" when the beginning drivers would tangle up their "teams", but nothing that couldn't be fixed by putting on the brakes and getting out and straightening out the wheels couldn't fix.

Lunch was free--part of the admission--as was the dinner and dance on Saturday night. They did NOT nickel and dime you to death like happens so often at events.

Littljoe, thank you for reminding me this morning of those few days in Colorado. You brought a big smile to my face as I remembered all the fun and excitement and seeing all those happy, quiet horses who seemed to be having as much fun as everyone else.
Linda