Do dogs really have an instinct about people?

[KarenN]

I was reading the posts about Rocky - Chris I am so very sorry about him. You know how I loved my RR Jamie, and I have a distinct feeling in my gut that Rocky can be rehabbed - don't ask me why, just a gut feeling.

BUT it kind of got me thinking. I have Great Pyr cross - mostly Great Pyr - that is extremely protective of my boys, home, the livestock here, and especially "HIS" black cat. He has never actually attacked anyone until recently. There have been people that I've really had to watch him with, workmen here working - sometime there would be 5 or 6, but one in particular really irked Simba for some reason. Had to really keep an eye on him. The guy seemed okay to us, but....

Chris and Cally have met Simba in person, and Simba liked them. He likes a lot of people. But the other day a man that my husband works with came over to pick something up - he came after dark, Simba was in the house with us. Ted and I were in the office, Simba and the boys were in the living room when Mat knocked. Phillip answered the door with Ian holding Simba who was barking like normal. Ted was on his way to the door, but Simba got away from Ian, charged the door and bit Mat - not too hard, but enough to worry us all. Simba backed down when Ted got there, but never took his eyes off Mat. It really shook us up, but I put it down to him being surprised and protecting the boys with us in the other room.

Well, several folks have come and gone since then with Simba only doing his cursory barking and inspection of them, no other incidents. Until Mat came back another time. Again Simba was outraged. He did not bite, but I think only because Ted was right there monitoring the situation the entire time.

Another old friend called and came to visit us on New Years. We had not seen Alfredo in nearly 10 years, so it was a great surprise, and something I was really looking forward to, but I was worried how Simba might react to him. Alfredo came out, and Simba never even barked!! He came right up to Alfredo with his suservient smiley face and asked to be petted! He has NEVER done this with another soul ever except members of our family.

I like Mat and Alfredo equally, but if I didn't know them and met them in a dark alley, I'd be more likely to trust Mat. So how do dogs "know?" Or do they?

[Mary Ann]

This is a good question.

My dog Jay Jay was a biter. He hauled off one day and bit my daughter's boyfriend once; tore his jeans and drew blood, and bruised him, too. I was friends with the breeder and told him about it, and he said "Maybe Jay Jay knows something that you don't."

I don't remember why, but I remember from talking to the behaviorists that there's something about knocking and the door that really sets a dog off more than anything else. I had to teach all my dogs to go away from the door and lie down before I could walk across the floor to answer it. If you forgot, you risked getting bitten. I suppose it has something to do with the herding instinct, and how they're hard wired.

Or maybe Mat has a funny colored aura.

[Sarah]

Yes I think that dogs (and all other animals) "know" and I have never seen a dog to be wrong about a person.

Case in point...my ex husband. An abusive control freak who tortured me for many many years and whom my animals HATE. My housedog (a dane/lab) Rat who loves everyone will try to go through a window when he see's D and it takes Patrick to hold him back. The friendliest of my hybrids Tigger (who I raised on a bottle) has lunged at D and it was only by sheer luck that he didn't get him. Many of the horses here also will not go near him yet they will go to anyone that comes near them in hopes that they will get petted and scritched.

Another case in point...my current husband. We were sent an "aggressive" hybrid by a shelter in Ohio when he was to be PTS. We were told he snarled and snapped at everyone in the shelter. The first day he was here he went to Patrick and laid at his feet with his belly exposed to be petted. Chance (the hybrid) "knows" that Patrick is a good person...

I don't know how dogs do it but I know that they can "feel" a person out. I'd trust my dog's judgement any day

[charliemn]

Absolutely!! my dog has done this a couple times--- one time that really sticks out is we were having natural gas lines put in our street to our house and one of the workers drove up into my yard and my pooch would not let that guy out of his truck, I had never seen charlie behave like that, I was shocked! well the next day I was having a garage sale and 2 of the workers on foot just walked up my drive and charlie went to them wagging his tail so I asked them about that guy and they said, oh him! he's got a few screws loose (shady character is what they called him) so I was totally impressed! than I had a friend and her DH came over once with her and my dog wouldn't for any life stop barking and circling him, well to say the least shortly after that I found some things out and we were no longer friends!

So Yes, I fully believe that they have a sense that we can't see or smell, they know when someone just isn't *right*

[Marci]

They read our thoughts-even before we put it into words. You cannot lie to an animal they know exactly what you are about.
Knowing this now, I find they sure are forgiving of alot.
I know Tabu hated this one guy who stayed with us for a while (would try and heel him every chance she got) and sure enough he was a drug user and just a real jerk. If my animals don't like someone, I will not trust them.

[Rosie]

I don't know, but I suspect they do.

When I was growing up, we had a big Belgian sheepdog (Tervuren) who was very protective. As a general rule, once someone was introduced as a friend, he would allow them to enter the property without any problem.

There were two exceptions, though. In each case, he absolutely would not accept them and would actually try to go through the closed door whenever they came around. One was Mom's hay guy . . . I didn't like him very much but he seemed harmless enough. And goodness knows, the devotion his dog showed him was amazing. The other, though, was a horseperson who would sometimes ride with us. He was later convicted of child molestation.

[Pouncer]

I think it depends upon the dog, and your connection to him/her. Some have it, and some don't.

I once worked in a liquor store until closing-5 am. The previous owner was known for owning a Dobie with a nasty disposition, and we found (rescued actually) a black Great Dane to stay in the store with me for intimidation purposes, lol.

The dog was *never once* wrong about reading people. Not ever. Most people never even knew he was there, laying down behind the counter most times. Every once in a while he would sit up. If he felt something really amiss, he would stare down the person, leaning heavily into me. Really bad folks would cause his hackles to rise-but he never growled or barked at them. If you have ever seen a Great Dane "puffed" I don't think growling loudly is necessary, lol!

Once, and only once, he leaned into me, hackles up, and began...ah....purring? Deep inside his chest-very very quiet, strong, subtle growl I suppose. More felt than heard tho. He wasn't wrong one bit. Ended up taking a length of galvanized pipe to convince the guy to leave the store at 4 am-with the dog reared up, paws on the counter, staring him in the eyeballs, lol

[Cally]

Absolutely!!!!

My border collie Bozo is the sweetest dog in the world. He's playful, loves new people, loves attention. He's truly the absolute SWEETEST dog.

Except for twice. We got Bozo as a 4 year old, a couple of years after my brother moved out. My brother had called home from Chicago, and convinced my parents to let him come live with us for a couple of weeks. The night he was supposed to come home, I kept Bozo in my room with me, with the door closed. At about midnight, Bozo woke me up growling. As Pouncer said, I think it was more felt than heard. Then I heard Mike's voice. Bozo jumped up and began lunging at the door, growling and snarling. The whole time Mike was here, Bozo stayed with me, always putting himself between Mike and I. He never once took to him. He tolerated him, but never took an eye off of him.

My Dad used to have this really creepy kid coming out here, he was REALLY creepy. Bozo hated him. We had to keep an eye on him the whole time the kid was here, or he would sneak out of the room to go find him and stand in the doorway growling at him. He didn't like him one bit.

So yes, I definitely think that some dogs have a real instinct about things. Bozo is one of them. Our mastiff Rainey is not-she could care less. There are two types of people-those she can ignore or get pets from, and those she should run and hide under the bed from.

Now as far as the REASONS that dogs don't trust people? As Marci said, I think that dogs can read people. Maybe Matt is dealing with a situation that makes him not feel good about himself-the dog senses that and decides not to trust him either. You know?

Erika

[linda]

I agree, even though my stories aren't as great. If our dogs don't like someone, we are very cautious.

My present dog--a border collie/spaniel cross--has taken on both a bear and a bull when they where threatening us, not to mention dogs who weren't as friendly as they should have been. Yet, this guy has been asleep when the dwarf rabbit jumped off the couch onto his back. The dog just went to the door and asked to get out. He knows the difference. He loves everyone--with the exception of just a few people. One guy who he doesn't like pumps gas at a local station occassionally. He wags his tail and wants all the other attendants at that same station to pet him, but growls at this one. I believe he knows something the rest of us do not know.

When this dog shows his teeth, it is for a reason. I trust his judgement completely.
Linda

[Mags Mom]

Hard but good question Karen. In the case of therapy dogs that are trained to assist owners when a seizure is suspect, no doubt the dog knows something is going on. The cadaver dogs that worked the WRC site after the 9/11 attacks dealt with bouts of frustration/depression after finding only the deceased and not survivors. Now, the question to me is this: since those dogs had no personal relationship to the deceased were they mourning the death of an unknown person or the frustration of not being able to complete the task, finding a live person?

My own mixed pack, two Jack Russell terriers and a Whippet, will run off a predator dog, cat, etc. when given the command “take it” and with drawl when told “leave it”. The Whippet is surprisingly protective and yet he is a hound through and through; when he gets an idea in his little hound skull he can be more stubborn than a wise Shetland pony teaching obnoxious kids how to trot.

As for people, all three of our dogs were shown extensively in 4-H, terrier trials and some AKC shows, so they are very socialized. One terrier gets overwhelmed easier but not aggressive. Chris and her grandson were over here many years ago to see our baby goats when John was quite young. John was just being a kid and pulled or pushed on the Whippet and the Whippet snapped at John, grazing his face. I was horrified. I guess the Whippet is just too bony and can’t handle the tussle of young children so from that point on the Whippet has been off limits around young children.

Some dogs, like some people, have a stronger intuition and there are degrees of intelligence. Also, our companion animals judge people in the “moment” and without some of the clutter that cloud our own vision- more on this later w/ Mugsy. However, dogs can carry baggage and have memories of previous mismanagement and abuse yet likewise, we’ve all read stories about the amazing ordeal a lost dog has gone through to get back home. Towards that end here is a baggage story for you: we once had a female JRT that had been previously owned by a local family and they did not get along with her, hence she ended back up at the breeder. Enter a Yorkie cross we had and those two terriers we best buds, she was the brains and he was the athlete. One day while picking up the girls at a practice in town w/ the two terriers in tow we encountered the Mother of the JRT’s first family. Squeakers, the JRT, ignored her. Mugsy, the Yorkie cross, sniffed her shoes then lifted his leg and PEED on her!! I thought I would die of embarrassment and a whole lot more from “touché” Keep in mind that Mugsy was also shown extensively and NEVER, ever was DQ’ed for fouling a ring.

There is a photo in a book I have that the local newspaper published after Hurricane Hugo ripped through Charleston, SC. The photo is of the owner greeting his mature Golden Retriever on his neighborhood street on The Isle of Palms The Island had been off limits to residents for nearly two weeks because of the bridge damage. The emotions of the dog and owner seeing each other after such an ordeal jump off the page and tug at your heart!!!

Now, if someone could just please tell me what in the heck my cats are thinking when it’s just me and them at home on a cold, quiet winter night, nothing is moving in the house then out of the blue they jump up from their slumber and stare at the back door or out a window and raise the fur on their back!!!! That freaks me out!!

Leslie

[Duchess me too]

Personally I think dogs are dogs. If they feel they are being threatened or challenged then they may get their hackles up just like a person does. If a dog does not preceive a threat or challenge then it is business as usual.

Why do so many dogs attack small children? Not always because they are threatened by them but more likely than not to gain higher status in the pack.
My sisters dog goes after the elderly and children. Just like a dog would in the wild. He will also growl if he feels threatened. This could be a man with a beard, deep voice, bolsterous additude. He also is aggressive towards people who are fearful of him because he detects that he is superior. He is a real ass and I would have wrung his neck years ago.

We have brought pack animals into our families. They just see us as a pack. Some animals never learn their place in the pack and need to be removed. My dogs are taught that they are lower than low on the totem pole. Especially around children and animals smaller than them. NO dominant behavior is encouraged. If they were to bite someone I invited into my house or in no way threatened them or me, they would be removed from my house. My dog chooses to eat cat crap and rolls in horse poop. I do not trust her decision making skills

[lesfire]

I think sometimes they do, but be careful even dogs can be fooled. My dogs have all loved one of the worst people I know, in fact all dogs I've ever seen around him loved him. And he is violent and bad in several different ways. He is a good con artist though, could con people and apparently dogs as well. Fire never much liked him though.

[KarenN]

Cally - you made a great statement, that Mat may be dealing with things that worried him or made him feel less secure about himself - He has a son that at 17 mos cannot walk, talk, and has no coordinated muscular movement. The Dr's are at a loss as they cannot find ANY physical reason for the child's lack of development. Mat loves this boy dearly and is sooooo frustrated by this. Add to that he also has a darling 4 yo daughter and a newborn son (both normal) and a wife whom he loves dearly but she is almost non-responsive to the son with the problems - yes, there is a great deal of stress in his life.

Duchess - I respectfully disagree with you about getting rid of a dog who was doing his percieved job of protecting my children! Remember, Ted and I were not in the room, he had never seen this man before in his life (hence, not INVITED into our home in his doggie mind) and the man began to intrude into where Simba's children were. Sorry, but I WILL NOT condemn a dog under those circumstances.

To everyone else - you have confirmed my feelings that dogs do have SOME kind of sense about people, and maybe other things.... story: I had a small dog Charlie. Charlie was a stage star - she was in plays at the Old Globe Theatre in San Diego. I was a costumer there, and she came to work with me everyday. The Artistic Director loved her look and used her in several Shakspeare productions. Every night I'd take her out to the Greensward for a walk around midnight - after the plays were over and we were cleaning costumes and getting ready for the next day. Every night she'd stand and bark at a specific spot - I never could see anything there, and always called her a silly old girl. One night, Craig Noel, the revered director of the Globe happened to come by and witness her bizarre behaviour. He smiled knowingly and bent down to stroke her head and to look where she was - he whispered to her and just loud enough for me to hear about the ghost that wandered the grounds at night. She stopped barking, whimpered and licked his face. It was the spookiest thing I ever witnessed - but she never again barked at that spot. Once in a while she would growl or whine there, but never went into those barking frenzies again.... weird.

[Duchess me too]

Perceived being the operative word. My dogs are not allowed to perceive their place or roll in our home.

What happens when they get more and more comfortable with perceiving and less comfortable with obeying?

Rocky perceived the goat as a threat. Look how quickly he was able to get the rest of the dogs to agree with him. Chris had no control over the situation in a split second. No thanks.

Still the only thing that matters is how YOU perceive your situation. If you are comfortable with the dog that is all that matters. Perhaps the children were startled or frightened by the knock at the door and the dog took that as a command to bite. I would still work on it. You wouldn't want the dog to perceive one of the children's friends as a threat.

Was he reprimanded for attacking without a directive? If not he may be more likely to do it in the future to gain status within his pack as a leader.

[KarenN]

Guest-Duchess said:

Was he reprimanded for attacking without a directive? If not he may be more likely to do it in the future to gain status within his pack as a leader.

Reprimanded would be a mild word for what happened to him. He still cringes when my husband asks him if he's going to bite anyone again. I swear that dog knows every word we say.

BUT where we live is quite remote - we're not fancy city dwellers, we don't have police protection, even the county sherrif won't come out here. Unfortunately the bad guys pretty much know that as well. Simba is intended for protection - Not that this is a dangerous place to live by any means, but Simba has a job to do, and he does it very well. Of course the REALLY bad guys will just shoot him, but then the .38 is there for back up.